How to Survive the Healthcare System....(if you must be in it)

As everyone knows, I been saying for over a year to stay out the hospitals. If you want to know why, just go listen to our show a few weeks ago with Dr. Bryan Ardis. But today, our guest is currently still working in healthcare. Dr. David Wilcox is a nursing professional and hospital administrator. He is so disturbed about things going on in healthcare that he wrote a book about it: How To Avoid Being a Victim of the American Healthcare System: A Patient's Handbook for Survival
It sounds like there has been a lot of fraud and a lot shady political dealings going on in healthcare for a long, long time. NOTE: I disagree strongly with some of the views of our guest, however, he still works in the healthcare system and we respect his willingness to come on and speak on some of these issues. If you find yourself in the hospital for whatever reason, this is good information to add to your bag. As always we are not providing medical advice. Please talk to your doctor or trusted healthcare professional. 

Guest Bio:
Dr. David Wilcox was born and raised in Syracuse NY. One of his earliest memories was of his grandmother telling him that he would be a doctor one day. It didn’t appear that he was following the correct path to that dream as he dropped out of high school and left home at 15 years old. After a failed first marriage that produced a special needs child, Dr. Wilcox knew without a doubt he wanted to be a caregiver. This led him to get his licensed practical nurse (LPN) certification and began his journey into the medical profession. Over the years Dr. Wilcox was a kidney/pancreas transplant nurse as well as an intensive care unit nurse, and emergency department nurse. Later he moved to North Carolina and journeyed into nursing management and became a nursing supervisor while obtaining his bachelor’s degree in nursing and master’s degree in health administration. He also studied patient throughput or the movement of patients in a hospital and became a patient throughput director. In this role he spoke at many Institute of Healthcare Improvement (IHI) conferences on the creative ways he found to ensure patients being admitted had open beds to go to. Later seeing an opportunity in healthcare information technology (IT) Dr. Wilcox joined a healthcare IT company where he obtained his Lean Six Sigma Black Belt (LSSBB) certification and his doctorate becoming a thought leader in efficient ways to care for patients using technology and clinical buy-in. This journey led him to create this book to reach patients and empower them with the kno

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Transcript

Intro: 1:12

fighting back against the left's non stop attacks on liberty, freedom. And America, America. This is don't tread on liberty. Jason Davis is on the air.

Jason Davis: 1:28

Hey, welcome back to Detroit on liberty. Thanks for being here. Jason Davis, your uncuffed law enforcement officer now just telling the truth about whatever I see, that comes across my desk, and today, we are going to talk to a health care professional. And as we all know, healthcare has kind of been exposed, I feel like over the last year and a half, two years, but we'll ask the professional about it. He's actually a nursing professional. He's worked in emergency departments, intensive care units, supervision, management, and even hospital administration. And he's the author of the new book, How to avoid being a victim of the American healthcare system. Boy, do we need that book? Dr. David Wilcox is with us, Doctor, thank you for being here. How are you? Great, Jason,

David Wilcox: 2:12

thank you for having me. And you're right, we all need to understand what's going on in healthcare to safely navigate the system.

Jason Davis: 2:18

Yeah. And I mean, it's always been relatively complicated. I mean, anybody that has gone in for a procedure or anything, and you know, even if you have health insurance, it's it gets to be very complicated when you you know, because like every, every provider you see builds you separately, and then the insurance doesn't make it simple to understand, and nobody knows what's going on. So your book is very good at kind of making it easy to understand all the red tape and putting it in perspective. So you know, the lay person can navigate. And I really appreciate that. And I bet your bosses just loved you for writing that book. Right?

David Wilcox: 2:54

Actually, I've gotten pretty good support from my bosses, because, believe it or not, there are healthcare professionals that are very frustrated with what's going on. So you alluded to the fact that healthcare is complex, it's not accidentally complex. It's complex for a reason people don't want the average layperson to understand what's going on. And we'll talk about a little of that as we move through the interview today.

Jason Davis: 3:18

Okay. Yeah, for sure. Now, you consider yourself a healthcare disrupter, right? That's correct. Okay. So what are the main areas that you'd like to change in healthcare?

David Wilcox: 3:30

So let's start with something that you touched base on the fact that you go in for a procedure, and you don't know what the costs are going to be? So I want you to think about that for a second. When you go to buy a new car, do you do your research to find the costs so when you go into have an operation or a total knee, maybe, or go to a cath lab for a procedure, you really need to research what's going on. So there are some things available to the American public that they don't know, such as the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid star ratings, you can go in there and you can look at the hospital or ambulatory surgical center that you're going to go to, you can look at the doctor and you can find their star ratings. So that star ratings go from one to five, and anything for anything less than four you want to stay away from. So that's one thing.

Jason Davis: 4:21

Go ahead. Let me let me stop you there. So those star ratings do those come from the patients? Or where do those come from?

David Wilcox: 4:27

That's a great question. Yes, they come from the patients. So the patients actually part of the reimbursement system for the hospital system is that they send out a questionnaire and many of you if you've been in the hospital received that questionnaire, what you don't know is what you put on that questionnaire directly affects their reimbursement. So if they dropped down to two stars, they don't make as much as the hospital system that's four stars or above.

Jason Davis: 4:52

Okay. Now, the reason I asked you that question is because I'm very hesitant to trust anything that comes out of CMS or FDA or CDC, for a lot of reasons. And we can get into some of those if you want, but, but the point is, is that if it's coming from the people, okay, now, if they're being compensated in a certain way for certain things, I mean, is there a way that they can manipulate those ratings?

David Wilcox: 5:18

No, actually, I can tell you from my own experience, going to a two star hospital within my area, that I've got that rating, and I blasted them because there were many errors that they made during my emergency room visit, which lasted about seven hours. So you can't really they can't bribe you to say, yeah, no, they're great. And everything was PHP, you just have to speak the truth. Now, there are some other groups out there that do that. That's why I say go to the CMS and I understand what you mean about CMS. How do you trust the CMS right, but for the star ratings are a pretty accurate reflection of what's going on within your community.

Jason Davis: 5:56

Okay, perfect. So I didn't want to cut you off, but you were about to tell us some other points that are available to the American public.

David Wilcox: 6:04

Sure. So um, you can also there's a healthcare Bluebook you requires a subscription. So let's say you're going to get a total knee surgery within your area. I know you're based in Arizona, so you're going to get a total knee surgery in Arizona. How do you shop for that? Well, the healthcare Bluebook will give you a ballpark figure for your area of what you should pay for that procedure. What a lot of people don't know is if you're, if you're healthy, you can get that procedure done in an ambulatory surgery center, in my area for about $1,000. If you're not healthy, and you have to go to the hospital, it's going to cost you about 12,000. But the hospital doesn't necessarily tell you that because they would rather drive the business to the hospital and make the extra money on you. So President Trump put in place an executive order before he left office, which took place January 1 2021, in which he stated that hospital systems would have to put their prices up in a customer friendly format, for cost for consumers to be able to look at those procedure prices, and decide if they wanted to go to that hospital. Or maybe they wanted to go to neighboring hospital and save some money, depending again, on star ratings. And I'm going to throw that in there. Because you definitely want quality care wherever you go. So what happened was to this day, 95% of hospitals don't even have that information. And if they do, it's in a very unreadable format. And there's an example of that in my book, for my area when I did a search, excuse me. So they've talked about in this infrastructure bill, because it's only a $300 a day fine, which is like $110,000 a year. So hospital systems don't care about that, they'd much rather pay that than have to give you the price so that you can properly negotiate, and maybe your business is going to go somewhere else. So they're talking about the infrastructure bill, making that $5,000 A day up to 2 million for beds, for hospitals with 30 beds or over under 30 beds, they would keep the current model just to incentivize them to put actually put their prices up on the web. They're not really compliant. And that's not an accident. They just don't want you to know what it's gonna cost because they don't want you to compare it a shot.

Jason Davis: 8:25

Now, does that does that executive order actually still stand?

David Wilcox: 8:30

Yeah, it does. Actually, Biden's administration held on to that. And in fact, I just read something which I think is a day late and $1. Short, where they actually issued warning letters to about 395 hospitals last week that they weren't in compliance, but they have yet to collect one fine on this executive order. You know, and let's talk a little bit about that. So an executive order in and of itself really doesn't have as much teeth as bipartisan legislation does, right. So this is like a no brainer, and it has

Jason Davis: 9:04

no teeth and executive writer and executive order. The President's orders only affect federal agencies.

David Wilcox: 9:12

Right, exactly. Yeah. So this is a bipartisan issue, right. I mean, Republicans, Democrats, independents, I don't care who they are, they should be going after high drug prices, they should be going after high medical costs, you know, the, we pay 19.7% of our GDP and health care up from 17.7%. In the year 2019. Some of that's obviously due to COVID, while other industrialized nations pay 8.7% of their GDP, and out of the 11 industrialized nations, that we do quality checks on, we fall dead last at the bottom, what we're paying more than anybody else, that our model is broken. It's it's completely shattered.

Jason Davis: 9:57

Now President Trump did something else I remember. I think, I'm pretty sure it had to do with diabetes medication, where he was gonna, he mandated that all the big pharma guys lower all the costs of diabetes meds, and they and they were not very happy about that.

David Wilcox: 10:18

Well, they didn't actually do it. So it was called the most favored nation policy. And so what President Trump said, if you can sell insulin over an Italy for $7, a vial, then you we should be able to get the same deal over here. So what he did was he did another executive order, and he gave them a I think it was 60 to 90 days to figure it out. Then he called a meeting at the White House for the big pharmaceutical companies. Do you know how many showed up? 00. Right. They didn't even take him seriously.

Jason Davis: 10:49

Yeah. And I heard that it, you know, they scrapped that when the election was over, and Biden got rid of it anyway or something. But yeah, but that was a great idea. And that's something that absolutely should be happening. I mean, why why are we paying way more here than anyone else? Now, if you have insurance You know, some of this really doesn't matter to you, right? Because, like, if you go in for a knee surgery or something, if you go in for outpatient you pay $150 copay. And that's it. So it doesn't really matter to you, you know, under that plan, really what it costs, does it? I mean, or does it?

David Wilcox: 11:29

Well, if you have have a high price deductible, let's say, insurance, it was astronomical for you as an independent business owner, yeah, it's going to make a difference, you're going to definitely price shop for it. If you are a working person or have a really good insurance policy, you're not going to care as much, which is kind of a bad mindset, because they're still walking away with an awful lot of money. And many people don't even read their hospital bill to say, you know, hey, I never got that. $25 Tylenol, I don't even know what they're talking about. And they don't push back. But there's a lot of stuff in your hospital bill, if you read it, that you may or may not have gotten.

Jason Davis: 12:06

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Now, this is really the the crux of the issue of what you call the difference between value based care and fee for service. Right? Correct. Okay. Now, something else in the book that really caught my attention, and like you rightly pointed out in your text, I don't think a lot of people even know or I've ever heard of it is a pharmacy benefit manager? What is that? Tell everybody what that is and why they should know.

David Wilcox: 12:34

Okay, so a pharmacy benefit manager started right around that same time, we got the first plastic insurance cards, which is late 70s, I want to say, and they were actually was a good role, because what they did was they looked out for generic medications for you and tried to lower your bill. Slowly, they got bought up by the pharmaceutical companies. So the pharmaceutical companies put into place a new model in which they use coupon coupons and rebates to drive the cost of your medications. So a pharmacy benefit manager sits in the supply chain between the insurance companies and the pharmacy companies, and they make decisions about what medication you're going to get or what you're not going to get. An example is if your physician orders you a brand name Lopressor drug to lower your blood pressure. And the pharmacy benefit manager says or offers you the generic version. That physician writes for the generic version of pharmacy benefit manager says I got a coupon for the brand name. So they're going to use that coupon keep the difference and pass the cost on to you to be higher. It gets even worse than that because I know a friend who's an oncologist at a stage four cancer patient. He wrote for a certain type of chemo knowing the patient's background and what he thought would work. When your stage four cancer you don't have a lot of time. So he wanted to get the best medication on board. The insurance company called him back and said you can't have that chemo you have to try this chemo. And he said, No, I ordered this chemo. And they said no pharmacy benefit manager says you have to try this, the farm and he asked to speak to the pharmacy benefit manager and they said that's not possible. You can't even talk to these guys. They're shrouded in secrecy. They're using coupons and rebates we know nothing about. So here's a story that really hit home for me. And it's an example in my book, I had an 16 year old English Setter who was developing some heart problems. Her name was Pipi Lu. And so the vet prescribed Viagra for puppy Lu. Now Viagra was originally intended to be a hidden pulmonary anti hypertensive or pull fluid off the lungs. Once they saw the side effect of you know, curing or helping erectile dysfunction, then the stock shot up as well as everything else shot up. And so my wife went to fill that prescription. And the pharmacist pharmacy person told her now this is without insurance, because it's a dog, that it would be over $750 a month. And my wife is like, that's crazy. I love my dog, she got back in the car she wrote downloaded the good RX app, she found the same prescription across town for $63 for a month's supply. So if you can sell that prescription at 63 as a pharmaceutical company and still return 15 to 25% to your shareholders, which is the expectation and what are you doing selling it across town at over $700 for the prescription? There's there's no transparency there. No, there

Jason Davis: 15:37

isn't. And, you know, as we're kind of starting to see, over the last year and a half, two years, these medication companies Big Pharma and government kind of collude together but it's almost like it's really about the money and and and oftentimes I don't even think I don't even think the safety studies are done properly. But I feel like they've really been exposed and it's really been this way for a long time. But unfortunately I don't think really too many people paid attention until recently but you know, the FDA gets It's like 40% of its budget from big pharma. So how so? How is it that the agency that's supposed to regulate these guys is actually funded by them?

David Wilcox: 16:20

Exactly. And when you and you broaden that scope a little bit, the big pharmaceutical companies put in$43 million in the last election in 2020, across both aisles. So you see these politicians coming into office swearing, they're going to do something about high drug prices. But once they land, it's crickets that's on both sides of the aisle, biggest bipartisan issue that you could do is get together and regulate the pharmaceutical agency. Why are we paying you asked me why we were paying so much in this country as opposed to other countries, we're paying for research and development, but they're getting all kinds of taxpayer money for research and development. And when you open your People Magazine, and you see that big ad for some kind of medication, it's they can write that off. I don't know about you, but I can't even write off the donation I give to the food bank down the road, right? Up to$300. I think it is, but it's just craziness, that stuff that they get away with in that model. But they're incentivizing. Like you said the FDA, they're incentivizing politicians to not come after them. Do you know that there is a law on the books called the non compete act now for Medicare, that was enacted back in 2003. It costs people in America over $11 billion a year. And it basically says that the Department of Health and Human secretaries can't negotiate drug prices for Medicare. So that's the biggest payer in the country, and they can't negotiate drug prices. And there's a law in the book that says that now in the infrastructure bill, there is some legislation to say they can negotiate drugs that have been out there for seven years. But I mean, that's just craziness. When you have so much government interference that's driving casa, I mean, the the amount that they get away with I take, take epinephrine pens there for allergic, severe allergic reactions, my wife has to have epinephrine pens in the house, thank God, we don't ever have to use them. But she's got to have them. They cost $680, here in America up 574% In the last 10 years, but in Great Britain, you can get them for 69 for a two pack. Why? Why is that tolerated? You know, I just don't understand why we don't do something about that. Well,

Jason Davis: 18:36

I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that in Great Britain, they have socialized medicine. And as you know, the care is much poorer under socialized medicine than it is in our country. Now, the government is paying the bill for all of that under their system. So they probably they probably use the power of the government to negotiate a better deal. Whereas here, whereas here, we're under a capitalistic system, so we can pay as much as they can get for it. Right.

David Wilcox: 19:07

Right, exactly. But they do have better quality outcomes. And we do in Great Britain. And like I said before, we are the lowest and we're paying the most for it. But they don't have politicians interfering in the negotiation of drug prices. I mean, you know, insurance companies negotiate drug prices, while

Jason Davis: 19:26

something you mentioned before, I want to go back to you mentioned r&d. And I mean, a lot of this r&d is done by universities and stuff, and it's done for free. I mean, they don't pay anything, these pharma companies don't pay anything for that. So the whole thing is just a big scam. I mean, the CDC is essentially a vaccine company. I mean, they hold patents on hundreds of drugs and vaccines. And again, they're supposed to be regulating these people. I it's, it's almost it's almost absurd. I mean, it's obscene.

David Wilcox: 19:58

Yeah, it is. And let's talk about the vaccines. So, you know, the shot that you either take or don't take for influenza, the flu every year is actually a variant of the 1918 Spanish flu. So when we had this pandemic hit the drug companies were quick to the table, because this is 100 year strategy for them, correct. I mean, we're still taking that or not taking the flu vaccine, it's still there, because it's still circulating, that's what's going to happen to COVID. I mean, that if you trace the 1918, Spanish flu, you will see that it follows the same, the same pathway that we're seeing right now with COVID. So COVID starting to dummy down, it's not as bad is for some people, it's more like a cold, or some people are asymptomatic. And it's it's going to continue to dummy down. But you know, being able to get two shots of vaccine a year doubles my profit. And, you know, do we need them or don't we need them? Well, it's too early to tell with the research. So you know, of course, everybody, most people are lining up to get them and that's exactly what the drug companies want. So I'm not saying don't get them I mean, better safe than sorry, um, you know, more people are dying. without the vaccine, they're dying with the vaccine. So I, you know, I'm one of those people who took it. I didn't grow three heads yet. Check me in five years. But you know, it's, it's, it's a gamble. It's all a gamble. And you're right. They're not being truthful with us when you talk about research that, but I believe,

Jason Davis: 21:28

but hang on a second. So let me push back on you a little bit because there's research out every day that shows the death rates are skyrocketing since the shots have been in circulation, you have athletes dropping dead after they take these shots. I mean, young guys, 3040 years old, world class athletes, right? Something is definitely going on. And the other thing is that the the government almost is so from the very beginning. They've had these PCR tests that they use to basically scared the whole country that you know, this is something really bad. From the very start, the PCR test itself is flawed. It's been proven to be up to 100%, false positive. Okay. So that should have never been used as a diagnostic tool, the inventor of the tests, so every study says it. So now they've admitted that right, CDC, CDC is phasing that out, right, they gave the notice at the end of December. And they basically admit that it can't tell the difference between the flu and COVID. Okay, so the whole, this whole thing has been propped up on a fraud. And the fact is, is that you as you know, 1000s and 1000s of people die of the flu every year. Right? Correct. And those are the only ones that we know about. And I'm sure that most people don't go and get flu test when they feel sick. I mean, do you I never have have you? No, never. Okay, so So what we basically have is a hysteria caused by the government over a fake test that doesn't work. And everybody that got the flu this year. And did you notice, by the way, that there was no flu that like the last year, there was like, flu just disappeared? It wasn't around. No one saw it. I wonder why that was and, and now it's back. Right. So I feel like this whole thing is just been a big scam. And I think it is to drive the profits of the big pharma companies. What do you think about that?

David Wilcox: 23:36

Yeah, that's definitely a piece of it. I have a closer connection with different hospitals still being in healthcare. And, you know, so I see data come out on both sides. And, you know, I mean, you can just about find any data you want anywhere, whether it's accurate or not. So I just asked nurses, I know that are working, and they're like, you know, you know, the majority of what I got in the ICU, they didn't take the vaccine. And then the people who did take it have severe complications, or obesity and diabetes, that end up in the ICU. There's those freak things, like you mentioned, like those athletes that dropped dead, there are some side effects definitely from the vaccine, wallet clots. And people have gotten blood clots from them, you know, j&j vaccine, I wouldn't take that, because of the

Jason Davis: 24:24

Will the bear system vaccine adverse event reporting system reports over a million adverse events, just in the United States. And according to their own study done by Harvard, they only capture 1% of events. So it seems to me that this thing has more risks than there is benefit. I mean, they even the CDC admits itself that the shot neither prevents transmission or infection. So it doesn't protect you. And it doesn't stop you from spreading it. So why would you take it? I mean, there, it's all risk and no upside. Right?

David Wilcox: 25:03

Well, to lessen the symptoms is why you would take it. You're right, it doesn't stop you from spreading. It definitely doesn't stop that. You know, so a good I guess, a good example, or one way that I rationalize this is my own medical doctor before they even had this out. When they when they were looking for volunteers to test, the Pfizer vaccine he lined up as well as some of his buddies, who are all medical doctors. And they took a shot in the arm and they didn't know what the heck was going to happen. But they took it and you know, and he said he had a sore arm. He a couple of his friends had some symptoms for a day or two. But out of that group that I know of, there were medical doctors, nobody really had any major complex problems from that vaccine.

Jason Davis: 25:48

Well, I mean, the stuff that I see is looks pretty bad. Now also in the book to go into taking care of yourself. Now this is this is something that I'm really big on. I mean, I think everybody should get healthy and stay away from the hospitals as possible. So you're talking about GMOs, I mean, and this is something that You know, everybody's moving towards you know, they want more of this on the market. What do you think about that?

David Wilcox: 26:17

I think that GMOs and tests have shown that rats who are pregnant miscarry their babies almost consistently with eating GMO products, as opposed to rats that don't. I know that Russia bans GMOs, and does not allow GMOs in their country. I think GMOs are risky. It's very risky to have a diet that contains GMOs. So people should pay attention to that. The other piece of that, too, is buying organic food. I mean, organic food is more expensive, but you know, what's in those pesticides? I mean, they they affect you? And, you know, staying healthy means whatever you put in your body has to be healthy, too. Yeah. Well, there's no doubt garbage in garbage out. Right. Right. Exactly. Okay, but it's easier, you know, but it's easier in depressed areas for somebody to go and get a happy meal for$3.50 than it is formed by organic salad at whole foods, whole paycheck for, you know,$8. I mean, so we don't make it easy in that food industry, either. For people to eat healthy, to stay healthy, but with health care being about 20% of our economy, you know, I mean, they're just not making it easy. And that fee for service model is driving 20% of the economy. You know, they get paid when you show up sick. So if you don't show up sick, they don't get paid. So you alluded to value based care. Is it okay, if I jumped to that for a second? Jason, go ahead, please. Okay, so under fee for service, we saw that people weren't getting their elective surgeries during COVID. They were staying home, they weren't going to the doctor's office, they were doing telehealth, if anything, and they were trying to just stay out of the fray so we can all figure out what the heck was going on. And with that, we the taxpayers had to bail the hospitals out to keep the doors open, because they run on two to 3% margins for the most part muster for profit. And that's a different story. value based care models, which are capitated models, which are administered under accountable care organizations. And the best way to explain that is it's a group of doctors. It's a group of physical therapists, homecare people, respiratory therapists, dietitians that take a certain amount per head per patient a year from the insurance companies, the insurance companies say, Okay, I'm giving you x amount of dollars for Jason, if you can keep Jason healthy and out of the hospital, you can keep the profit. If Jason goes to the hospital, then it's on you to make up the difference. So these guys are really incentivized to keep you out of the hospital. It's not like when you show up, and you're sick, they get paid, like under fee for service, they want you to be healthy. So they're, they're doing things like customer relation management software, which hits your phone and says, Hey, you're due for your colonoscopy, you know, or come in and get your flu shot. They're sending you messages like that and tracking your response to keep you healthy, so they can keep you out of the hospital. That's a model that only 25% of Americans know about. And it's it's simple. I mean, it's basically, if your general practitioner says you need to see a cardiologist, the cardiologist is in network. And so they know that they're in network, they've already gotten the insurance payment. It's not like you're going to an out of network cardiologist, which is going to cost you more money, because they're in network, as as long as they can keep you in that network and keep you healthy than they profit from that. That's the model that's really going to game change America. Unfortunately, we don't have enough of it out there. But it's starting to catch on. And so, you know, I would, I would say people do your research on that, because that is the golden ticket out of this healthcare mess.

Jason Davis: 30:00

But I think you alluded to earlier that the politicians are basically in the pockets of these big pharma companies, and I'm sure they don't want that to happen, right?

David Wilcox: 30:09

Yeah, they definitely don't want that to happen. It's, it's interesting, because you talk about the insurance company. So here's a little story that was that's in the book also. So a certain insurance company took the Medicaid population in your state and Arizona, they bought an apartment complex in Maryville, they went on paper and figured out who the homeless people were that were costing more than $50,000 a year. Because in the hospital, there's laws that say you have to treat people you can't just turn them away. So they're you can't go to the hospital to have them to just say no, go to another hospital, if you're homeless or whatever the situation is. So they have to take them in treat them. Sometimes they end up as inpatient. Sometimes they just come to the end to get a hot meal. And you know, they're not taking their meds so they get a few meds and then they leave. But so this insurance company found the guys who were costing them over $50,000 a year. Then they approached them and said, Hey, we're going to give you a place to live access to a nurse practitioner. We're going to help you sign up for SSI payments, so you can get back on your feet. The caveat is that you don't go to the hospital unless it's an emergent situation. And you've talked to our nurse practitioner, and you stay out of the hospital and you've got a place to live and the people who are compliant, the model worked out well for both them and the insurance company. But what about the guy living under the bridge, who wasn't accessing the emergency department who needed a home just as badly as these guys who were accessing and gaming the system? They got absolutely nothing. So again, it was really driven around profits. And you're going to see more of those kinds of models as states don't really want to manage that population, Medicaid population, and it's going to be the insurance companies who are thinking outside of the box because they have to return that 15 to 25% of their shareholders every quarter.

Jason Davis: 31:59

Well, it all is about the money and it usually is but you know, all things considered, it's really not a bad idea. Yeah, exactly. Whatever the reason, if they're able to do that all more power to them. Yeah, doctor, it's a fascinating book, How to avoid being a victim of the American healthcare system. Really enjoyed it. You made a lot of good points here. I disagree on the vaccines, but that's okay. Really fascinating discussion. We really appreciate you coming on. Thank you. Yes. And you can find it up on Amazon, your website to where people can go to find you. What is that?

David Wilcox: 32:36

Dr. David Wilcox one owl.com

Jason Davis: 32:40

Dr. David Wilcox calm and the book on Amazon. Dr. Thanks again. We really appreciate your time. Thank you, Jason.

Intro: 32:49

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